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When you hate someone for their race, that's a racist. And like I said, it would take a lot for a writer to convince me that a minority woman would wanna be with an ex-racist. I can see if the "hero" hid it from the heroine at first then told her he used to be a racist but that's a cop-out and would cheat the audience. Also about being prejudice, it's different from racism because it doesn't ever have to deal with the subject of race.

People can be prejudice or have prejudice opinions about people based on different things. Some people have a prejudice against fat people. Some have a prejudice against women. Some have a prejudice against gays and on and on. But racism deals strictly with race and hate. And it would take a lot to stop someone from hating. Mar 01, AM. I agree about the distinction between being prejudiced and being racist. I honestly don't believe that racists can change.

If you've spent most of your life hating people on the basis of the colour of their skin, how can a change be wrought overnight? I don't buy it. I'm of the belief that once a racist, always a racist. And any former racists who now say they're reformed characters who love all people are just lying. Or they want early release from jail Norton was awesome in American History X, unfortunately the movie didn't receive the type support it might have otherwise because the director had some type of breakdown.

It wound up with an Alan Smithee credit because Norton edited it himself. I do think a racist can change, my question is how do you come to believe in the change? I wish I could remember the Oprah show with the former skinhead who married a black woman. I think they had a book as well, but I really don't remember. I think the class thing is different. I don't think the hatred there rises to the level of racism. Snobbery is real and can be painful, but when was the last time you heard of someone being dragged to their death because they live in a trailer park?

What Chaeya said I once read an article about a former skinhead going through the painful process of having all the hateful tattoos removed from his body. The skinhead admitted he'd done a lot of bad, violent things, and he was ashamed of his past behavior. He, his wife, and kids were in hiding because of threats to their life. Some of these people are indoctrinated from the time they're young to hate. When they're older and can think for themselves--or they experience some event that changes their minds, they do want to get out.

According to the article, there are organizations that help former racists break free and start their lives over. It's been a long time since I've seen American X. I do remember it was hard to watch, but I liked the transformation that took place in Norton's character. I would definitely read a book with a former racist hero.

I'd want to read it just because it was different, but I would need an HEA. I couldn't read something like that without closure. Jews are considered by many, including some Jews as a different race. The history of the Irish is a bit more complex. The violence there is more economic than anything. And slave owners didn't necessarily own blacks because they thought they were subhuman. They owned slaves because it was in their economic interest to do so. You have to remember that organizations like the Klan didn't exopist before slavery.

Much of the hatred of blacks came about because they were humiliated and chose to blame their loss of wealth on blacks. Of course they looked white, but most Jews will quickly tell you they're not white. As for slavery and racism that's a chicken nd egg argument. Racism and white supremacy were created to rationalize slavery, that doesn't mean all, or even most slave owners believed it.

If you read people likebJefferson you'll see how schizophrenically they had to contort their minds around the issue. And really, this is even MORE horrific.

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If they continued slavey because they believed blacks were inferor, that can be dismissed as ignorance, much like flat earthers or phrenology. But if they knew better and still did ut ipout of sheer greed, that's evil as hell. Danielle, Thanks for the Queen reference. I had forgotten. It's been years. About the slave owner thing I respect you disagreeing but I respectively disagree with you respectively disagreeing with me.

The reason I say that about the slave owners is that of course it was wrong to have slaves, but it was the law. I think some slave owners took advantage of that law and weren't necessarily as hateful or racist as some owners were. I do believe the majority of them were but we must remember that having slaves was unfortunately allowed in the law so I do think they were wrong for not standing up if they were the ones not very racist and fighting for slaves but there was just so much against that back then. But either way owning slaves is horrible. Great discussion, Ros!

Thanks for starting it. I wanna share something about myself concerning my own prejudices in the past. Now, I know a lot of black people who do not like Asians because they feel all Asians are racist towards blacks. A lot of blacks have also had bad experiences with Asians because they say Asians assume all blacks steal, etc. I have had bad experiences with Asians and I will admit, back in the day it did make me not like them as a whole. I admit that was wrong but I am also being honest. I have gone into hair shops run by Asians and been followed around because they assumed I would steal.

I have been hurried up at the counter by the Asian man because he felt threatened. I have had Asian workers watch me out of the corner of their eyes to make sure I don't pick nothing up off the shelf. I have had Asians at the counter stare at me like I was crazy for coming into their store. So after getting that treatment from a lot of different Asian businesses for a while , I stopped shopping in them. I said, "Why give someone my money if they don't want me in their store? So I went for a long time having a very negative opinion of Asians. Yes I know that was wrong, but that's how I felt.

How I had been treated outweighed giving the benefit of the doubt. I was hurt and it upset me that they didn't care enough to see that just because I was black, I wasn't like the man coming in the store at 2 in the morning or 4 in the morning to rob. I was there to do business with them. But they saw color first. Then as I got older I realized how I felt toward Asians was the wrong way to be. I was doing the same thing to them assuming they were all racist , that they had done to me assuming all blacks stole or robbed.

So that's when I woke up and realized I can't be that way. That was a few years back. Now, more and more Asian shops started popping up into my neighborhood and you know what, these Asians that are working in these stores around here now are the nicest people you'd ever wanna meet. They don't follow you around, they don't treat you different. And with that I really realized how wrong I had been. But you know what, it was a lesson I learned.


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And it was weird to learn a lesson from something bad that happened to me but I am glad I did. I think we all go through lessons when it comes to race. No one is perfect.

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Now am I gonna lie and say I don't have stereotypical views of some races? I won't lie. I do because there are some races I am not exposed to personally and only see reference to them on television, etc. But the difference between me having views that might lean on stereotype and being racist is that I don't hate anyone.

See I never hated Asians. I was just upset at how a lot of them had treated me and blacks in general. Anyone else have a revelation like this? I gotta tell you most of the blacks I know hate Asians. I mean they will say they HATE them because of how they are treated in their stores. What I don't get is, for the racist Asians, why do they open up stores in the black neighborhoods in the first place if they don't want you in there? I never understood that. And the funny thing is I have Asians in my family.

But still I let the racist ones dictate my feelings the most. I shouldn't have given them that power. Mar 01, PM. Yes, there are some Asians who are very racist; they come over here and pretty much want to turn this into a better version of their country - meaning, they don't want to deal or associate with anyone other than their own people. However, I pop my little butt right over to Vietnameseville and buy my spices, herbs and fish. They treat me rather well at my favorite grocery store.

Here's the issues with the stores. In the 70s and 80s, most new communities started tract housing built around more of a neighborhood shopping center, rather than your little neighborhood markets. Many older communities were taken over by blacks and other minorities, and when Asians wanted to set up shop, they either had the choice of buying something in their own communities more competition or going to the other communities with the minorities less competition and cheaper.

When I lived in South Central, I watched these people get robbed and bullied by not just gangs, but just the neighborhood troublemakers and badasses in general. So you can understand how they could just stop liking black people in general. You have teenage mothers coming in with their kids making a mess and then get mad at the shopkeeper when he tells them to mind their kid. I've seen this with my own eyes. I've been embarrassed for my own people watching this mess. When I was a kid, we had a neighborhood store manned by a real nice white lady named Alice. It was Alice's store.

For a few years, we would always stop by there and buy candy on our way to school. When all the Section 8 black people moved in, that's when the robberies started and one time she was robbed at gunpoint and she said screw it and the store became abandoned. All the original residents in the neighborhood were angry and they started a Neighborhood Watch in hopes to combat the problem, but slowly all the shops in the area just went down and where I lived became just one kick above being the ghetto.

We grew up middle class, as did all of the black people in my neighborhood who were two-parent families, fathers worked, moms stayed home with the kids - we did all the things white people did, just didn't get credit for it. Then we got that lower class element that brings everybody down. It's bad enough you have the media that keeps flounting that blacks are from the ghetto, single parents and so on.

I'm sure Asians see this and hear from others what we're like and they come over already prepared to hate. But that's a whole nother subject. It's really ridiculous a lot of the stuff I went through. But my spirit guides have a way of backhanding me once in a while.

One day, I saw this white guy walking down the street. He had a shaved head and tattos and the first thought entered my mind was he was probably racist and a skinhead. He passed by me, smiled, and very friendly-like said "how you doing. I no longer judge based on what my eyes show me. On the slavery issue, don't forget too about the KKK, it wasn't just that they blamed blacks for losing the war and your general racism, blacks were also competing with the lower class whites, Irish and other immigrants for jobs. This spurred riots, even in Northern cities when blacks started to migrate up there.

Great discussion. Roslyn wrote: "I've got this up on my blog. So there is immediate attraction and that would be the only thing that couldn't be used in this situation because a skin head wouldn't immediately find a woman of color physically attractive. So lets use what I call "attraction by interaction" for exmple this skin head is not ignorant just think there is a need to change the world say he's became this way at a young age because his parents owned a store that was robbed and killed by Black gang memebers.

Can't say it's stereotypical when it happens in the real life somewhere every day to someone or it wouldn't be a consistant senario on America most Wanted. Say they never found his parents killer and so he just hate all black people in general because even those who had witnessed it refused to testify.

So he created this extension of a group to clean up his family neighbor hood of Blacks but in a legal way. He's a racist skin head that has a law degree. How his perceptions change is by one woman that has been working at the library he has frequented since college.

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He notices because of who she is and how she interacts. He notices because she know who he is by the media and by the tattoos and such that are only revealed when he is dressed casually amd yet she treats him with the same kindness she does everyone else. The story builds from there and it would give the writer the opportunity to put more sexual tension in the story instead of just rushing to the gusto.

Suddenly a story that could be about racial division turns into another story about love undenied and what is love suppose to do to people when it's right? It changes both of them for the better or it isn't right. LOL, oh a male stripper most def can be done. Just like because a woman is a stripper it does not make her uneducated or lacking of a reason to be doing such a thing. A reason bigger than the picture.

What if he was an undercover cop investigating the sex traffic trade and a particular "Chippendale type" enterprise was a tie in to a rashing of missing young men. Sex trade may be majority women but it is by no means a "women only" market. So he's seasoned detective, younger than he is investigating missing young men who have turned up dead or missing.

His motivation? His baby brother or nephew is missing or an older brother that dissapeared when he was a kid and was never heard from again He could also be a younger than the heroine, living off his looks and body and don't mind using women to get what he want. A good writer and a strong heroine such as one that becomes his parole officer or a bounty hunter that bailed him out only to have him jump bale. That could turn easily into a romantic comedy. But I think the undercovercop thing would be a cheat, much like if it were the racist who is actually an FBI agent investigating hate groups.

But it would make for an interesting story line. I guess I'm not getting this "cheat" thing. Why would you want to restrict your craft and thought process by worrying if someone would think or consider it a "cheat". I haven't every heard such a statement made by Caucasion writers in regards to their books or thought process. They have done and over done everything in the book going back to "borrowing" from classics of the eighteenth century such as fairytales.

I think our readers expect to much realism in fiction and fantasy. This is why I write my way to attract the readers who are looking for my stories and not trying to play to the masses. So far my career is being mapped on the "build it and they will come" factor and it's working for me.

So who come up with defining what's a "cheat" factor in fiction writing? Tell them to stuff it and write the story you want to tell. Shiree, there are plenty of writers who don't "restrict" their craft, there are also plenty authors who can't sell their books either. If you're a writer of IR romance, and you put in a pure racist as a hero, I'm bypassing your books, and moving onto the one where the hero doesn't represent a real life problem I've dealt with all my life.

To me, the idea of a racist hero is akin to having a serial rapist who has now reformed, as a romance hero. Would you buy that book, and believe the romance? Karen, I understand how you feel. However, I did see on a documentary not to long ago a man who was a white supremist who fell in love with and married a Black woman.

It changed him completely. He was slowly having all the tatoos removed and he was now a guest speaker against racism and misconceptions one race has for another. So it isn't your romance but that Black woman that lived it for real probably would enjoy reading a book that she could personally relate to. A lot of women find dating Asian men a "It's not for me" type of read, but there are also many that will. I have found some readers act as if the writer is not a good writer or the story is not a good story because they didn't like it.

I see it as a book that I didn't like but don't mean someone won't. A racist can change I think. DanielleQ 4. Shoe Shopping. Masturbation Diaries: Shoe Store. Stephen7Redo 4. Pharaoh's Lounge. The Barista. My Night with Sophie. Exhibitionist Roommate Pt. College Girl Tease. Between Karyn's Toes Ch. FootjobLover 4. Discovering Natalie. Trick or Teat. Miami Gothic. Holly Grows Up. The Teacher Learns a Lesson.

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